tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10404411.post114593303914057108..comments2023-11-05T04:39:42.422-05:00Comments on KaviSpeak कवि-उवाच: Communism, Reservation, Justice, UpliftmentVivek Sharmahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00794419464988884719noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10404411.post-1147362321062526192006-05-11T11:45:00.000-04:002006-05-11T11:45:00.000-04:00It is fun to see communists squirm on your blog.It is fun to see communists squirm on your blog.barbarindianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14335786532366741947noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10404411.post-1146087532616307132006-04-26T17:38:00.000-04:002006-04-26T17:38:00.000-04:00More from sulekha.comVivek Sharma comments:on Apr ...More from sulekha.com<BR/><BR/><BR/>Vivek Sharma comments:<BR/>on Apr 26 2006 1:30PM delete this comment block this user<BR/>Very interesting comments here, and friends, I do agree with the fact that your family background, your economic status and your ancestory helps a great deal in achieving success. Yet in an examination, what is judged is how you utilize your strengths and weaknesses to achieve success. The thing that I like most about entrance examinations and job examinations is that you come to the table with a pen and a head, and what is judged is a roll number. Hence, I believe if any change must be made to the system, it is in providing the capability to the poor sections of the community. It is like preparing a warrior, you teach him all the skills, and let him fight it out.<BR/><BR/>I am surprised noone talks about why a graduate from even IIT and IIM or Medical School warrant reservation, if he is already as qualified as others. I am also surprised why noone comments on why reservation is required at every step of a man's career, rather than maybe at the beginning ot it.<BR/><BR/>I will write another blog soon, talking about various very relevant and interesting points the comments here have brought up. I though the discussion about what IITians have given back is a separate issue, the foreign direct investment and rising sensex can meter some of it, but I will try to include that as part of my next blog.<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>Simpletruth comments:<BR/>on Apr 26 2006 11:12AM delete this comment block this user<BR/><BR/>I totally agree with what is said by Ponnisilvan , none becomes merotorious overnight, it takes "hardwork" but hwo do u get this haRD WORK? WHERE DO U GET MONEY FOR TUTORING? WHO CAN TEACH U about the stratergies? why can't some one find a way to insert lowercaps to teh upper case on word.."Jesus"<BR/><BR/>well , I got carried away but Ponny rocks..<BR/><BR/> <BR/><BR/>And next is the question of "merit"..Just a simple question for you. Did you wake up one day and took the JEE to get a seat in the IIT based on your natural brilliance?. Or did you use the various coaching classes, used your support structures (say aunts/uncles already graduates and in high positions in govt. industry etc.. ). And even if you claim you have come from the rural background without any of the support structures mentioned above, tell us what is the percentage of such folks who study in IITs now. Please don't take offence. I was just trying to figure out.. where "merit" is coming from..<BR/><BR/>Let's go into history for a while. The political / economic / academic / social capital was all entrusted into a few ruling "elite" castes for hundreds of years. The "social" capital is passed on from generations to generations through 'arranged marriages' which makes use of 100% reservation within the same caste groups.. that in turn maintains the advantage in all other spheres.<BR/><BR/>With democracy and one man - one vote, political capital moved to the "masses" and they are naturally making use of it. to get to the other spheres "academic" and "economic".. "reservations" are just strategies to make the "playing field" more of the same level.<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>Ponniyin Selvan comments:<BR/>on Apr 26 2006 11:09AM delete this comment block this user<BR/>If you don't mind getting treated by a doctor who got admitted due to reservations, it is fine. It's your choice. I have no qualms in doing so<BR/><BR/>Should be read as<BR/><BR/>If you mind getting treated by a doctor who got admitted due to reservations, it is fine. It's your choice. I have no qualm in doing so..<BR/><BR/>Ponniyin Selvan comments:<BR/>on Apr 26 2006 10:48AM delete this comment block this user<BR/>This was my comment on another blog. Fits well here too..<BR/><BR/>It is funny to read the "upper caste" folks' rantings day in and day out on reservations. "Reservations" are used only at the "entry point" of the academic programme. You still have to pass the rigorous exams and everyone is judged by the same standard at the exit point.<BR/><BR/>If you don't mind getting treated by a doctor who got admitted due to reservations, it is fine. It's your choice. I have no qualms in doing so.. And you have to talk based on facts not assumptions. I have quoted the newsreport earlier that talks about the various cutoff marks for the medical candidates in TN and it goes like this. (295-OC, 294-BC, 292-MBC, 287-SC, 274-ST) out of a total of 300. implies even the last ST candidate scored a 91%.<BR/>What you are griping about is the misuse of "reservations" by the "creamy layer" of the backward castes, SC/STs.. Those folks need to be kicked out of the "reservation" program.<BR/><BR/>And next is the question of "merit"..Just a simple question for you. Did you wake up one day and took the JEE to get a seat in the IIT based on your natural brilliance?. Or did you use the various coaching classes, used your support structures (say aunts/uncles already graduates and in high positions in govt. industry etc.. ). And even if you claim you have come from the rural background without any of the support structures mentioned above, tell us what is the percentage of such folks who study in IITs now. Please don't take offence. I was just trying to figure out.. where "merit" is coming from..<BR/><BR/>Let's go into history for a while. The political / economic / academic / social capital was all entrusted into a few ruling "elite" castes for hundreds of years. The "social" capital is passed on from generations to generations through 'arranged marriages' which makes use of 100% reservation within the same caste groups.. that in turn maintains the advantage in all other spheres.<BR/><BR/>With democracy and one man - one vote, political capital moved to the "masses" and they are naturally making use of it. to get to the other spheres "academic" and "economic".. "reservations" are just strategies to make the "playing field" more of the same level.<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>Maria S comments:<BR/>on Apr 26 2006 10:37AM delete this comment block this user<BR/><BR/> <BR/><BR/>Vivek,<BR/><BR/>Interesting views again...<BR/><BR/>"You cannot make everyone rich by distributing money to the poor. Unless you teach a man how to best use his funds, he will squander them. Unless he is forced to earn something through his own labor, a provided for beggar would love being a beggar. It requires less labor, and if you call his profession a dignified way of existance, he will have no motivation to strive for changing his status."<BR/><BR/>Was this taken from the "compassionate, conservative" Republican handbook? (not accusing you of plagiarism!!)<BR/><BR/>Do all beggars 'love' being beggars? Come on:-) Let us give our fellow-human beings a little more credit and show them a little more compassion...if you don't provide help (through govt. sources or our own contributions)..some will survive, and some will be more ill/suffer more...that is the reality..And why is someone poor? Don't you think, in many cases, the reasons are complex and not as simple as 'they don't want to work'?<BR/><BR/> <BR/><BR/>"Quality, my friends, is paramount. If my life is in danger, I will want treatment from the best qualified doctor, and my sense of social justice demands that the best is selected."<BR/><BR/>Don't we all wish ...that 'we always have the best'? (*best, being a relative word again).<BR/><BR/>As someone mentioned, getting into medical school is just the 'starting point'..one step.A Doctor- needs knowledge, good judgement and good skills...Just because he/she may have knowledge (score 100% on all the Med.School entrance exams and graduate with honors), does not mean...they "always" have the other two qualities .and even if they have all three. may not always "perform to the best of their abilities"..it all depends on so many factors...mainly how lucky the patient is:-)<BR/><BR/>I am sure this will be an ongoing debate....and none of us have the perfect answers...but nevertheless, it is an interesting discussion.<BR/><BR/>Maria<BR/><BR/> <BR/><BR/> <BR/><BR/> <BR/><BR/>Simpletruth comments:<BR/>on Apr 26 2006 10:25AM delete this comment block this user<BR/><BR/>Vivek,<BR/><BR/>where we believe all need to earn equally well, all need equal amount of luxuries and all deserve same quality of life. Everyone is not Tendulkar to be inducted into the list of cricketing legends. Everyone cannot run as fast as PT Usha. You can teach someone to read and write, but you cannot make him into Tagore or Premchand. Being Dhyan Chand requires both talent and effort, and no matter how you justify induction of a player into hockey team based on his economic status or caste, he is a bad choice if he is not the best.<BR/><BR/>I am sorry to say you totally come across as a bureaucrat not as a person with social empathy. If you have studied the american and indian education system closely you would knwo that each child has the potential to become a vegsarkar or Tagore, each one of us are gifted in one or the other skill, this is inherent and a fact. It will only takes us another 100 years to solve all the basic problems of food ,housing and other things to survive and once we are done with providing these basic necessities, we may move on to building skill based education and there by providing each child an aptitude based opportunities.We may even have lesser number of children and we will also have a well structured society where people are happy doing what they want.<BR/><BR/>I totally disagree with your argument about not all children are intelligent. In America the children are classified and kept in special classes for gifted and talented, and that is such a farce, in India we have 37 children in a class equally taught on the same level and we strive that all 37 do better, but due to family and economic conditions and due to mass education the children who cannot focus will not get ahead. It all depends on how much you can work with thses kids, most of the time thses kids who are thought to be bad in school go on become great painters and scientists using their own mental dicipline or by the mentouring of some selfless person., hence it is all a matter of mind here ..skills are there in every person, I beleive each one of us could become a Mozart or Balasubramaniam if we only had the dicipline of mind.<BR/><BR/>As I said intelligence is decided by so many factors and you cannot generalize the whole process of acheiving intelligence..there by reservation based on intelligence or by economic conditions, you also have to be responsible enough to look in to teh history and timeline of events, you are "RESPONSIBLE" for what your ancestor did, you cannot wash off your hands simply because they are dead and buried,,<BR/><BR/>How about all you unreserved IITan ask for IIt standard education in all itechnicle institutes? why only the creme of you?<BR/><BR/>How about all you IITans so called the "intelligent and hardworking" make difference to the society instead of pocketing big jobs and making big bucks? what have you guys given to the society that is different than the reserved candidates?<BR/><BR/>have you the "standard" IItans done soething different that the reserved candidates? and major civil laws are changed because of your intelligence alone? any major catastrophies befallen on India because of reserved candidates?<BR/><BR/>why make mountain out of molehills when all you need is a good job and money. you and teh reserved candidates have only one motto -survival..so live and let live?Vivek Sharmahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00794419464988884719noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10404411.post-1145979165225758242006-04-25T11:32:00.000-04:002006-04-25T11:32:00.000-04:00From SulkehaChaos comments:on Apr 25 2006 12:59AMI...From Sulkeha<BR/><BR/><BR/>Chaos comments:<BR/>on Apr 25 2006 12:59AM<BR/><BR/>If my life is in danger, I will want treatment from the best qualified doctor, and my sense of social justice demands that the best is selected.<BR/><BR/>I so agree with this statement. If the same people from the reserved categories are appointed only doctors who got in through reservation, or made to stay in colonies by the same engineers who got seats via reservations and then got promoted with the help of reservations, they would hesitate. If they created this system and want to defend it, then they have to also face the consequences.<BR/><BR/><BR/>ramavatar comments:<BR/>on Apr 25 2006 3:06AM<BR/><BR/>Upper caste Hindu Can not change their Caste because it was decided by birth. But They can change their religion from hindu to Muslim. In the Era of vote bank politics, the upper caste hindu are serious about to change his religion to get the benefits of Muslim reservation, if it given to the muslim. The muslim reservation provide a opportunity to upper caste Hindu join the mainstrame of vote bank politics. The will also influece the muslim population and education rate.<BR/><BR/>The reservation for OBC is only meant for YADAv and Jats. There are 3000 OBC caste are in India. But in 20 year duration of OBC reservation only two obc caste i.e. Yadv and Jats are getting the benefits of OBC reservation. 99.9 % of OBC still far away from reservation due to political power, land power and money power of Yadav and Jats. they are expoliting the reservation in their own interest.<BR/><BR/>If two caste of obc get benefits of reservation in 20 year then how many years of reservaions India needs for social justice or upliftment of 2998 caste of OBC? This is not a question of airthmatics its a reality.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Naive Indian comments:<BR/>on Apr 25 2006 4:57AM<BR/>Absolutely right! But, then who will buy this? The very mention of reservation excites people. The arguments keep revolving round the historical injustice, the backwardness, the merit being 'misinterpreted' and so on. Let me ask a question: With each passing year, we see that the number of backward castes are increasing, with no caste being removed from the list! Should we think that the socioeconomic conditions of the reserved categories aren't getting any better, but , on the other hand, they are deteriorating?<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>Vivek Sharma comments:<BR/>on Apr 25 2006 9:57AM<BR/>Naive Indian: The idea is to create a loud enough "voice of the meritorious" so that political pundits take notice. Most of them are well aware of the absurdness of the reservation regime, and once they see a large enough worldwise vedict about it, they will think lesser of appeasing the "voting castes". Unfortunately our silence is thought to be as our approval.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Ramavataar: That is a nice argument, and if for argument sake that happens, do you see thr eightwing parties taking notice and talking about abolishing reservation? I guess reservation can go only once we have a nationwide campaign against it and all political parties agree on revising their stand on the issue.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Chaos: It is a simple point, which most people not appreciate as well. To defend, we need the strongest bodygaurd, to cure the best doctor, to do well the most astute consultant and administrator.Vivek Sharmahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00794419464988884719noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10404411.post-1145979056787816012006-04-25T11:30:00.000-04:002006-04-25T11:30:00.000-04:00From Desicritics:The Hissing SaintURLApril 25, 200...From Desicritics:<BR/><BR/>The Hissing Saint<BR/>URL<BR/>April 25, 2006<BR/>02:13 AM<BR/><BR/>The problem I guess is a severe myopia with the powers above. The only thing that seems to incentivise any decision is the political advantage to be gained out of it.<BR/><BR/>In fact in Maharashtra there is a proposal to make the subject of Math optional at the Eight standard level. This of course coming at a time when Bush is exhorting americans to learn math or watch their jobs being taken away by India!<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>#2<BR/>The Hissing Saint<BR/>URL<BR/>April 25, 2006<BR/>02:19 AM<BR/><BR/><BR/>In fact here is a comment I had posted on another blog in relation to the subject of reservation and vote banks.<BR/><BR/>Talking about vote banks...i guess if politicians were marketing professionals they would find this country a marketers paradise.<BR/><BR/>I mean where else would you find so many well defined "segments" or groups of people with their own special interests and living their lives completely oblivious to the rest.<BR/><BR/>The slum dwellers, the villagers, the skyscraper dwelling big shots, the PSU employee, the SC/ST and OBC's, the rail mazdoor union and the list goes on!<BR/><BR/>The slum dweller would never understand why the rich man frowns at his squalid dwelling and the rich man would never understand the misery of a slum dweller.<BR/><BR/>ANd of course those thirsty people of Gujarat and MP who are waiting for the completion of the Narmada dam would never understand the anguish of a displaced villager.<BR/><BR/>And the good ole politican...well he just has to pick and choose the group that would give him the best return aka votes and serve their interests - the issue of reservation being the best example.<BR/><BR/>So long as this kind of fractured society exists...well vote bank politics would continue!<BR/><BR/><BR/>#3<BR/>Vivek Sharma<BR/>URL<BR/>April 25, 2006<BR/>11:26 AM<BR/><BR/><BR/>Well said Hissing Saint: yet we need to raise our voices against this casteism that "reservation keeps alive". A social change is brought out by few people emphasizing the rationality of giving up a bad tradition.Vivek Sharmahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00794419464988884719noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10404411.post-1145938372340940032006-04-25T00:12:00.000-04:002006-04-25T00:12:00.000-04:00Very profound thoughts Vivek. I specially agree wi...Very profound thoughts Vivek. I specially agree with your stance that people must be provided equal opportunity. This specially seems true with regard to providing coaching & training for competitive exams, job interviews and the lot. But should these only be extended to those who can wave their reserved category tag? How about the lower middle class, or those not very economically well off, but who are not 'cushioned' by a reservation tag? How (the logistics of doing so) do we extend this to them, and in the same argument to everyone? What are your thougths on this?The elderly camelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12616750299228702138noreply@blogger.com